3. | It's great compared to masteringchemistry or anything else because it is a lot more linear and helpful to understand if the answers are wrong and mistakes are made. |
4. | More in depth, yet very helpful |
5. | The EF website is so much better and more user-friendly than the other homework website I've used like Webassign and MasteringChemistry. |
7. | It is my favorite system. |
8. | others dont count off for no units, instead let you try again |
9. | It's a very smooth system that works very well. The assistance when you miss a problem can be extremely useful at times. |
10. | It is a very impressive program. I enjoy the hints, discussions, and other resources provided. |
11. | It was very nice. |
12. | I like the 110% much better than others such as web assign. |
13. | N/A |
14. | There were so many problems in which I had no clue how to do. I often had to seek out help of people who have had physics before. If the online-homework system had something similar to "Practice another version" of Webassign, it would be a lot easier and not as much of a pain to do. Spending 100s of hours just doing sets of homework that count less than the exam. GEEZ!!! |
15. | It's a lot better than most |
16. | one of the better systems |
17. | I prefer this system over webassign |
18. | much much much better |
20. | Worked better actually |
21. | N/a |
22. | The tolerance for the answer was really helpful. |
26. | way too much |
28. | It is effective but the units cause it to be a pain at times |
29. | First one like it I have used. |
30. | Way better |
31. | Bad, it is very different to lectures and recitations and exams and its a struggle |
32. | Its better |
33. | Lengthy and time consuming yet effective once accomplished |
34. | It is ok, but the programming is faulty and the way it reads answers is too specific. I missed a lot of points on really small technicalities that were very frustrating in one circumstance, I thought my answer was completely wrong even though I was just missing a capital letter, and it cost me a very large amount of points. |
35. | I like being able to submit many answers if I get it wrong. I think the 2 percent decrease in score works really well too. |
36. | It's fine, but the intermediate value system could be improved. |
37. | i liked it better than web assign but it was much harder |
38. | I liked this way more than others (ie webassign/mastering chemistry) |
39. | I liked the hints and intermediate value checker. The discussion board is also a cool addition to the system. |
40. | Way better than the mastering system. |
41. | Helps you learn what you did wrong |
43. | I LOVE that we had immediate feedback...definitely helped with fixing mistakes. |
45. | N/A |
46. | I think this was one of the best ways to do homework |
47. | It's very stressful and consumed a lot of time. There needed to be more intermediate checks in my opinion |
48. | This was very polished. I really liked it. |
50. | The best |
51. | There was so much hw! But I feel the practice is needed. |
52. | The immediate feedback was very nice. |
53. | Hints need to be more helpful |
54. | It's a very good system. It just sucks when you get the right number but lose credit because you didn't put in units. |
55. | Only online homework I had. |
56. | It was less touchy than other sites. It was a good site. |
57. | I liked this system, but I sometimes wish the units were more standardized and we only used the metric system |
58. | alot better than anything that i have used before |
59. | Great. |
60. | It's another website to keep up with. |
61. | Very helpful and interactive |
62. | It is not much different from any of my other classes. |
64. | Very good |
65. | It was about the same for me. I thought most of the hints were helpful while doing the homework. |
66. | The system worked very well. The discussion boards were extremely helpful as well as the intermediate value checks. However, making two due on Mondays was too much especially on the weekend. I would rather have one due friday, and then one due monday. |
67. | I think it works great because it gives you a marginal error to get answer correct. |
68. | Very good |
69. | I really thought the homework was very helpful, except the problems were much more difficult than those that were gone over in lecture. |
70. | it was easier to used but a whole lot more. i spent way more time on ef homework than any other class |
72. | Was easy to use |
73. | The homework system for EF was great compared to other ones I had to use |
74. | It is more accurate and the units require you to pay attention to the context of the problem. |
75. | By far the best website |
76. | By far the best way, occasionally the IVC would mess you up though. |
77. | I have never done online before, and it doesn't help a lot if I miss the problem. |
78. | It's more frustrating in the sense you can lose points for very trivial things but it's also easier to come to the right answer without losing that many points. |
79. | it brings good effects for us. And saving money for us. |
80. | It is daunting sometimes considering the load but all in all I find the homework very helpful |
81. | I thought it was really cool. I also liked the intermittent humorous pictures and problem setups. |
82. | This homework system was the most effective out of all my classes. It forces us to really understand the concepts because the problems are very straightforward, which helped me better understand what I was doing |
83. | I like how Tue discussion board is available to us. |
84. | I really liked it and especially the extra credit incentive. |
85. | Online homework is always awful. There is no way around it. Especially the margin of error. Working with my TA, there were several problems that we carried the numbers all the way through the calculation and the answer was correct conceptually, but was just outside of the acceptable margin. The margins need to be less strict. It makes answers that are right, wrong. That's not exactly conducive to learning anything. |
86. | Most don't allow for the answers to be somewhat off. That helped. |
87. | Way better than webassign. A+ on this system for you guys. |
88. | Way better than mastering science websites and web assign |
89. | way better than mastering chemistry. |
90. | A lot better than webasign mastering chemistry and Blackboard. |
91. | I like it because if you get it wrong you know that you did and you can fix it right there. |
92. | It was much better than others I have used. |
93. | Most other homework systems don't count off on the first couple of tries and they have practice problems to help out. |
95. | Much better than web assign or bookwork. |
96. | Much easier to use and the questions were relevant to the tests. |
97. | I like the format of this homework system because it allowed me too view other people's discussions which normally helped me on my homework. |
98. | I haven't used many homework systems since I started college, but this is a good way to make sure that you actually get an answer instead of just working a problem and assuming you got a right answer. The hints are sometimes a good help too. The intermediate value check is a very good idea, since it allows me to see if I am on the right track, instead of just working the problem without knowing if I have the right values or approach. Units converter saved me a lot of time as well. |
99. | Very direct and precise to other homework's' I have used. |
100. | I like it much better for its purpose. |
101. | It's much more useful. There are hints that help guide us which is helpful. I generally understand all of the material. |
102. | It's very lenient and fair. |
103. | I really like the EF website much more than anything else such as Webassign or Pearson's "Mastering" products. |
105. | I like it A LOT LOT LOT better than WebAssign. |
106. | The hw website is much better than the person hw website. The feedback and discussion boards with the IVT is very helpful when I get stuck. |
107. | It is helpful, but extremely time consuming. |
108. | This homework system is much better than the other class's online homeworks |
109. | I have not used anything else. |
110. | Very well |
111. | It doesnt crash like WebAssign does |
112. | It's really effective. |
113. | none other usedd |
114. | They are so much better than anything that I have encountered yet |
115. | I really enjoy this homework system. I love having the different percentage due dates and being able to get more than 100%. I also like that there is a page with unit conversions and that the website allows for multiple submissions. I do think that it is very tedious to have to write out given, required, solution, however I do understand why we have to do it. |
117. | It is outdated, and also i hate the sig figs |
118. | It was more interactive and helpful through he use of hints and IV checks |
120. | Better |
122. | I used an online homework system called QUEST in my high school physics class that was essentially the same thing. |
123. | BETTER THAN WEBASSIGN |
124. | The hints helped a lot. |
125. | It is the best I have ever seen. |
126. | it had to be more exact since it was a computer grading it |
127. | I did not use any other online systems this semester. The homework was very helpful and challenging. If you understand the homework, you'll understand the material on the tests. |
129. | It is good, but very time consuming. |
130. | They were alright, there needs to be more intermediate value checks and hints that do not refer to the book. |
131. | I have never used any system. |
132. | Sooooooo much better than blackboard. |
133. | I did not have homework like this in any other classes, but I enjoyed this method a lot more. |
134. | Very similar |
135. | about the same, maybe have a few less problems. Didnt have any example problems which helped me alot on my hw in Calc 2 and it helped me understand the material alot better to. |
136. | It is helpful that I get to retry the problems. |
138. | It never bugged out and accomplished what it need to. |
139. | I personally like the online Homework system, no real due date, the option to work on the homework whenever free time is available. |
140. | It's great. |
141. | i wish the rounding was a little more lenient. i lost some points for just making rounding decisions. |
143. | Love this system compared to the others |
144. | IT is really reliable compared to other homework systems. |
145. | The system is very easy to understand and use, and is very helpful. |
146. | Better than webassign so thats good I guess. But than again webassign lets you practice other versions of the same problem. |
147. | Much better than mastering chemistry and web assign |
148. | I like this one more. |
149. | It is very comparable to others I have used here in my first year, however, I find it a little more complex than any others I have ever used. |
150. | Better than most |
151. | It is much more clear on providing hints, which is very helpful. |
152. | It has been different than others. |
153. | It actually makes me want to do it. It helps me learn. |
154. | I have never used any online homework system before. |
155. | It was a million times better than my other systems. |
156. | Much better than the other online systems like masteringchemistry, webassign, etc. The discussion areas for every problem were very helpful as well as the intermediate value checks. |
157. | its all about the same, I think. |
158. | BEST BY FAR THE BEST!!! |
159. | Having hints and simple inputs (just text) is way better than mastering chemistry. |
160. | N/A |
161. | N/A |
162. | Similar, but most others dont require units |
163. | its different but really good because the hints and IVC |
164. | I like it better than a Webassign |
165. | To much busy work, doesn't even help us learn. I suggest we take a practice test before the beginning of the first lecture of the section and then proceed to work the homework's. |
166. | The EF online system is much more effective than other systems I have used this semester such as WebAssign and the Pearson Mastering Chemistry systems. |
167. | It was a lot easier and allowed for a larger margin of error normally due to significant figures. |
168. | only ever used pen and paper, online is cool. |
169. | Easier and more helpful. Tells you what is wrong with your answer and if it is close or not. |
171. | This really helps me actually understand the concepts in lecture. They provide me the practice i need to be confident about the module test. |
172. | The hints and intermediate value checks help much more than other online systems because they tell me I'm heading in the right direction with out giving me the answer ("web assigns"'s "practice another version" basically gives you the answer) but it doesn't leave me totally clueless (mastering chemistry offers no hints and that often leads to difficulties). |
173. | This is the best one that I've used. It's not too sensitive like other mastering and the hints really help. |
174. | I like it better |
175. | It was good because it forced you too understand the material which helped on the test. However, sometimes there were too many homeworks due in a short period of time, making it difficult. |
176. | The homework system is very well designed. I've also used WebAssign, which looks better, but is slower. |
177. | It is very in depth and makes sense for engineering |
179. | it worked well. I liked the extra credit as well. |
180. | It isn't perfect, but I prefer it to webassign. |
181. | Do not have much experience with other forms of online homework. |
182. | Very good. |
183. | Much easier to navigate! |
184. | It is easier to navigate |
185. | This is the first online homework system I have ever used. |
186. | Miles above any other online-homework I've ever used. |
188. | This is the best homework system I have used for any college class. |
189. | The only other system I've used is WebAssign, and anything looks like heaven when compared to WebAssign. I do like the EF homework system, it does get kind of frustrating sometimes when I've forgotten units. I also sometimes get frustrated when the only hint says "Textbook example 'so-and-so.'" The textbook was optional, I don't own it. |
191. | this homework system is way better than mastering chemistry and webassigns |
192. | I like it more than webassign, plus it seems like actual humans wrote the questions. The cheesy sense of humor was really nice touch. (I am really cheesy myself.) |
193. | Its good but definitely the hardest. |
196. | Much much easier than say mastering chemistry |
197. | I think this system is very user friendly and it is also good because it is as picky with the number and format of the answers. |
198. | The system itself is decent but the workload is sometimes unreasonable. Specifically, PLEASE reconsider having two homeworks due very close to an exam (like exam 4)--I know this prevented myself personally and some of my friends from doing as much studying as possible , and we also couldn't do as well on the homework and felt burned out during the exam because of the homework and studying combined. |
199. | It is good, but it might help if there was an example problem for each problem on the homework I could see. For example,my calculus class uses webassign. On webassign I can look at another version of the problem. This helps me solve the other problem. |
200. | |
201. | It is more efficient |
202. | Really well thought-out and much more helpful with trouble-shooting than usual. |
203. | Much much better than WebAssign! Hints and intermediate value checks were very helpful when you get stuck. |
206. | I prefer to other systems like WebAssign. |
207. | It is way better than the other online homework systems I have used this semester |
211. | I like the hints and intermediate value checks we have here |
212. | It is fine, but what took a very long time was the EF sheet. |
213. | The homework system helps me by making me cover things we've done in lecture instead of putting it off until the exam. |
215. | Poor. |
217. | It is more challenging then other systems I used. |
218. | Good/comparable. More helpful because of the hints/discussion/int. value check. |
220. | A lot better than Mastering Chemistry or Biology. This system is better than webassign because of the discussion section and the ivc! So far it is the best |
224. | I think its better than most hw systems because it is made by UT and so it is customized to us. Every now in then it would glitch sometimes the intermediate value check wouldn't work until i reloaded the page. The grading would sometimes drop from 110 to 100 right at midnight. |
225. | It's better than the other online homework systems I've used. |
226. | This is the best hw system. |
227. | It'll give hints |
228. | The best online homework system I've used. |
229. | Much better, I like the fact that it stills accepts answers even if it has the wrong significant figures, or if you're barely off. |
230. | Pretty good. Can be frustrating at times when you get stuck and the discussion board doesn't help |
231. | Its better |
232. | better |
233. | For me it was less helpful than other homework systems I have used. |
234. | its different but i liked it |
235. | The homework system works very badly. The website only grades based on the final answer, whereas the tests are graded much more based on the process of obtaining the answer. |
236. | Its very good compared to others. It was great to be able to work on homework ahead of time instead of waiting for it to be released and getting extra credit for it was great as well. It was good for learning the material as well. |
237. | I appreciate the helpful hints and the system itself. It's an enjoyable system versus any other. The hardest part is the amount distributed. |
238. | It is a lot better than written homework because you work until you figure out the correct answer, and the hints/intermediate value checks help you towards the correct answer. Compared to WebAssign it is more helpful even though WebAssign has the "practice another version". |
239. | It would be better if they could show you other solutions or give you actually helpful hints like matlab does. |
240. | It was a bit nicer, and I liked the multiple tries, which gave incentive to try to get the problem right even if I got it wrong the first time. |
241. | It was worse. Even if I arrived at a correct answer, I would have no idea if my work was correct, and it might have been a lucky guess. And I felt far more hesitant to answer because it felt like it had a more immediate impact on my final grade. |
242. | Very different, I like the Web Assign approach where they give similar problems but different in some ways for you to practice on before completing the problem. Also, while the book was recommended for the class some of the helpful hints from the hints section could not be found in the book. |
243. | It is way simpler and less of a pain |
244. | i love it |
245. | The homework system I really appreciate. The extra 10 percent for finishing early is a nice incentive. The method of it is also fantastic. I'm grateful that the website doesn't rely on flash for the actual homeworkng part, but it could be a bit more mobile friendly.
The units I'd sometimes type in wrong though >.> and lost points there. A misspelling. IF it doesn't recognize the units, I request it does not take points off. That way a simple spelling error of "ftlb" when it's "ft-lb" or "lb-ft" doesn't detract from your score. I am aware also that some would automatically correct from "s" to "sec" and I am grateful for that. |
246. | Definitely a good system, much better than Mastering Chemistry! |
247. | Best one yet. |
248. | it was pretty good. |
249. | It's a lot better, but a lot more tedious |
250. | Good |
252. | Similar to Quest used by University of Texas |
254. | I really enjoyed the extra credit for completing your work early. This encouraged me to work ahead. |
255. | n/a |
257. | It is one of the best system. |
259. | Better than most :) works on mostly every computer. I like how you don't have to download a lot of attachments. |
260. | Better than most |
261. | Why are you making the homework harder then the tests |
262. | It was a lot of homework compared to other classes
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263. | it helps because it tells you some times why you missed the answer |
264. | From what I have heard, this is MUCH better than any other online methods. |
265. | Better is it fast unlike blackboard which is miserable |
266. | Pretty good. |
267. | It's much better than the Blackboard homework system. |
268. | Better because there are specifics. Other homework systems I have to guess what they are asking for a lot. |
269. | I liked the ef homework system alot. |
270. | easy to work with |
271. | I like it because it gives suggestions when you have close to the right answer. |
273. | I havent used any other systems |
274. | It works well but the amount can be very overwhelming |
275. | Not quite enough Intermediate Value checks, at times. |
276. | Not complicated |
277. | Sometimes the homework system worked out really well, but there were times when the homework could be annoying or frustrating. |
278. | Average |
279. | Much better than Mastering Chemistry |
280. | better than webassign |
281. | Very good. I love how if you do them early you get extra points. |
282. | Better than most, but is hard to get through since the material is required and the concepts cant always be grasped so quickly. |
283. | Very good, love it. |
284. | I liked that we were able to get 110 percent on homework |
285. | Text example hints frustrate me cause I didn't think I would need the book |
286. | I liked the hints and multiple tries and the set up of the problems and progressive parts was good |
287. | i thought it was certainly better compared to other systems but i thought it was still lacking. my main concern was losing points for easy errors such as writing the units wrong etc. |
288. | Very good since there was immediate feedback |
290. | Very similar to online math homework but better structured with easier access to help. |
291. | I like it way better |
294. | Unlike any other |
295. | i liked this hw system much more |
296. | better than other systems I have used, especially WebAssign. |
297. | Runs very smoothly and intuitively. |
299. | I like this one. |
300. | I don't know |
301. | It's harder |
302. | better |
303. | By far the best on-line homework. Way better than Web assign and mastering chemistry. |
304. | I like it more than the other homework that i have done for other classes, it is easier to do and is convenient to get immediate feedback on my answers |
305. | I like it. It can be frustrating, but for the most part it's doable. |
306. | Hints helped more than most websites. |
307. | I really liked the IVC. I always worked alone so it was nice to have the opportunity to check midway through to make sure I was doing it right. |
308. | Did not use other systems |
309. | This system is far superior to webassign or masteringchemistry |
310. | It is a lot better and more helpful than systems like mastering chemistry. |
311. | It is very efficient, I would rather use it than MasteringChem or WebAssign. I think the problems were super hard sometimes but the system itself was pretty awesome. |
312. | Really good |
313. | WAYYYYYYYYY BETTER THAN WEBASSIGN |
314. | Very good. The only issue I saw was that the thumb down to get zero credit for a problem was not working. |
315. | I like it a lot because you get immediate feedback and if you got something wrong you know then and there and can learn how to do it right where as on paper homework, by the time you know you did something wrong it's too late to do anything about it. I love the option of getting bonus for doing them early because if you want to put in the work to finish before you have to you are rewarded and also don't have to be frustrated with a problem that takes you multiple tries because you know you are learning but still going to get a good grade for your efforts. |
316. | The homework is helpful, but the work load is EXTREME. Tone it down please. |
317. | Better than web assign! And the layout was better! |
318. | Site is put together very well. |
319. | This homework system is the best I have ever used. The amount of homework we had was a heavy load for sure, but overall a good system. |
320. | Similar to most |
322. | Compared to Webassign, I felt this was generally more helpful in providing useful and helpful hints and tips |
323. | It was way more user-friendly than others in my experience. Intermediate value check could definitely use some work, though. most times it seemed it was unavailable for the questions i actually needed it on.
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324. | I like the EF 151 system better because it allows us to continue trying multiple times. |
325. | Very very straightforward. As long as you can do the work, you should be okay. In other words, there's little room for error on the system's part. The fact that you can ask questions there is also very convenient. |
327. | Way better than Mastering Chemistry |
328. | great |
329. | Beautiful, I have yet to use a better system. |
330. | good |
331. | Better |
332. | Fairly the same system |
334. | Way better, by far. I use webassign and it is terrible in comparison to this program. |
335. | This is miles ahead of the sapling learning I used for economics. |
336. | it is better than connect. |
337. | I have used any other systems, but thought it was good. |
338. | It was nice that it gave you hints when you were wrong, such as "missmatch units" |
339. | Liked it more than blackboard homework or any other homework systems I had to use. |
340. | This system, albeit passable, has caused me nothing but stress. The questions push me to consider applications of lecture material that I would not have normally considered. I noticed this early in the semester because it reminded me of a former physics teacher. I like that part of Physics. And yet I am appalled at how overwhelming these abstract applications became in homework for later modules. I know myself, and I know the material is not beyond my grasp, however the homework problems provide no more than a hint and a chat box for problems I WOULD MUCH PREFER DOING WITH MY TA FIRST. The recitations were helpful in cementing the basics of a topic but...
After most recitations, and certainly in the beginning, I approached my homework feeling confident that, with the broad understanding I had been exposed to, I would be capable of tackling the homework quite well. What I found was that I would make my way through approximately half of the assignment until I hit a wall of these abstract problems which are imagined by the professors for the apparent sake of dashing my hopes. The problems left me confused and feeling helpless when nobody else seemed to understand them either.
All in all, the students need a lot more "Plug and Chug" before casually adapting material to knew and complex models without any source of immediate feedback or walk through. If I had been doing these problems in a classroom setting I would have felt so much more comfortable moving on to these concepts.
P.s. I would also like to add that I have already meet multiple COE dropouts who have complained about this precise problem and that is why I did my best to capture what I feel needs improvement.
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341. | similar |
342. | It was by far the best. I wondered why the rest of my classes couldn't have homework like the EF classes... |
343. | it was better than masteringchem |
344. | sometimes the units were particular about how you type the in and my questions would be marked wrong with the correct answer. |
345. | It's very effective |
346. | It was a good system but sometimes the units were confusing and cost me more than I thought they should. |
347. | I value the 110% early bonus, as well as the helpful hints such as "off by a factor of 2" or "check the sign of your answer." |
348. | Having homework graded regularly is similar to how my high school functioned. I am used to spending countless hours on homework, but it does sometimes become busy work as opposed to actual learning. |
349. | I like this homework system a lot better than MasteringChemistry or WebAssign |
350. | I think that it is fine |
351. | This was one of the more difficult ones, but by far the best homework system. |
352. | SO much better than the Mastering homework system. |
353. | While some problems threw me for a loop, I did enjoy the online homework system. |
354. | I really disliked this homework system. It's better than my chemistry homework system for sure but not as good as my calculus homework system. The intermediate value checks were really great to have, but on some problems the hint was essentially useless and didn't help at all. Especially when the hint was to check the book because that's pretty obvious and not really a hint. |
355. | A lot more homework then any other class I have had, but the system worked very well. |
356. | It is much better, I enjoy that it is graded on the spot and I can easily go back and rework the problems. |
357. | Much better |
358. | It was good because i had to work for the answer but the penalty for getting the answer wrong wasn't bad. |
359. | Its good, I like the intermediate value checks but sometimes there is not enough/any when there should be. |
360. | much better. Web assign and mastering chemistry are awful. The EF website was much better. |
361. | A lot better than web assign. Web assign's format is weird. It is about the same as mastering chemistry though. |
362. | this one is better |
364. | Pretty much the same as every other one operates but there are more hints and actually online discussion about the homework so props to that. |
365. | This homework system is so much better and it is free, no complaints there, the discussion and units tab are helpful too |
366. | Better then most, maybe even the best I've used all year. I like the switch to online homework for a lot of my classes, and this was no exception. |
367. | It's very annoying |
368. | I haven't used any other online homework systems. Compared to non-online homework systems, it seemed effective. |
370. | This is better than the other system I have used because it is user friendly and the discussion option allows for help when needed. |
371. | I like this system best |
372. | I liked how it gave credit for answers that were close to the correct answer. |
374. | Better than most online systems. |
375. | Great, provides hints and a message board to get help. |
376. | So much better than any online homework. Save perhaps www.edX.com. |
377. | New |
379. | The homework system was very well done with lots of hints to help out when i got stuck |
381. | Similar to web assign. |
382. | Better than webAssign and MathExcell |
383. | Its the best |
384. | The best. |
385. | Very impressive! |
386. | It is better than average. |
387. | very good. |
388. | The homework problems were sometimes way too difficult... Some of them were helpful, but the difficulty of those problems significantly exceeds that of what we take in lecture. |
389. | Much much much better. WebAssign for math and MasteringChemistry do not work near as well. |
390. | It works better. |
391. | It is very fair. However, I feel that many of the deadlines for homework completion were arbitrary. Also, I feel that we often graded many times for the same work. For example, one problem could affect one's homework grade, portfolio grade, and random homework check grades. Although each of these checks for different things, I think it may be redundant and could easily be consolidated. Since students are already punished for missing homework via their homework grade, I think the random homework check should instead be a check for organization on the best homework problem a student can offer, either chosen by the student or extracted by the TA during the portfolio check. This method takes luck out of the equation. If you think that students should be punished more for missing assignments than they already are within their homework grade, then you should simply increase the weight of the homework grade. Randomness is never fair. |
392. | n/a |
393. | It was a lot tougher than what I was use too. |
394. | The discussion board, hints, and intermediate value checks were very helpful. |
396. | good |
397. | On par with WebAssign, better than Mastering Chemistry. |
398. | I like having this system, where I can see feedback from an answer that would be otherwise flatout rejected. |